It is important to state clearly that all the information given here is solely about our experience, observations and honest opinions while being involved with the Leonberger breed for the last 17 years. And following our old enemies, the breeders of our first four Leonbergers, who had started a well documented vendetta against us in 2010. They joined the club committee in 2013, although had not even been club members ( as we had been) for many years, we knew that our membership was in jeopardy when they arrived on the scene. It took just a few months before the secretary was writing accusing us of being untruthful on our website. Something that when asked for evidence, she was unable to substantiate. In a working environment, it would have been classified as constructive dismissal! With hindsight, maybe we should have informed the KC about the underhand tactics being used by them? The secretary did forward to us copies of our correspondence to the owners of our puppy that was killed, story of Jenson below, of which we had stated that our ex-friend, their new breeder and committee member for welfare, had disposed of more than 50% of her dogs when she moved back to the UK. It was completely truthful and nothing that was not in the public domain at that time. We can only guess as to why the club would not want puppy owners having this information? It is our opinion that someone who rids themselves of so many dogs in this disrespectful way, isn't fit to serve on a welfare committee. Since this time, it appears that at least a further 3 dogs have also been re homed by the same breeder. Website no longer live!
It would seem that some of these people work to cover up and protect each other's misdemeanours, when they act contrary to the club rules. Cheating at shows is also acceptable within the club. Wales show around this time, to which we attended, one committee member changed her dog registration in to the name of her partner so she could show her male dog under a judge that just used said dog at stud. The expected result, dog received the CC. People at the time were astounded at the obvious subterfuge, including someone who is now a committee member alongside her. Another gaining honours showing her dog under a best friend, cheating is not a problem for the hierarchy.
All instances of the abuse that we have received over the years, is documented on this page. No one has ever tried to sue us for what has been written over a period of 14 years, in fact, not one reference has been denied by any of them. The truth is not libellous.
So in 2014 and after almost nine years with the Leonberger Club of Great Britain, we ceased our membership. This new committee had one set of rules for themselves and don't lead by example; a group of friends allowing some to hide behind the façade of the club and abuse their trusted positions. One person who was forced to resign for being in breach of club code of ethics, unethical breeding, seems to have regained her position, and more friends have joined the committee. She still continues to breach the code of ethics in social media posts. A committee who appear more dedicated to vendettas and castigating other breeders, than practicing any passion for the breed they are supposed to love?
(committees change over the years but original people remain)
They seem to approve of prolific re-homing by their committee members and are fully in support of people responsible for putting one of our puppies to sleep in 2013 after failing to ask for our support. They are such ethical people that they went on to sell them further puppies with the knowledge of what they had done to Jenson and put their own puppies at risk, just to spite us. How wonderfully clever of them! The full story of Jenson here.
It seems that most people with the credentials to run the club committee have now left due to unrest within. No longer will you find any of the good old respectable names there, anyone who has tried to join outside of this group of friends have been denied. Anyone with inferior knowledge to this group and who will be agreeable to them, can join them. It appears that membership has dwindled in recent years due to this. In our opinion, it's not the respectable organisation that we joined in 2006, and having previously encouraged our new puppy owners to join as members, we would now advise them to keep well away. The very bad language continually used by some on social media is disgraceful, we would certainly expect a better standard of people to represent our breed. We have also been made aware of their disingenuous attention given to some of our puppy owners at fun days with what can only be described as a surreptitious purpose! (since writing this, connective friends have began to pal up with some of our owners as well, we call them foot soldiers) It does make us smile!
It's not just us, other breeders have been informed that they have also been targeted with unfavourable comments. If your face doesn't fit with these people, you will be castigated by them.
In 2010, we were informed by one of our puppy owners that someone on the committee at that time, was advising her where she should not buy a puppy from,. This is in breach of their own code of ethics? they tell the breeders in the membership that they must not discredit other breeders. With this in mind, perhaps the benefit for the new committee members is to just to promote each other?
It was with utter shock that we heard that one of our puppy owners was invited to a club event in 2013, whose dog had Polyneuropathy and was compared with another dog, his litter sibling with the same diagnosis; (info straight from the horses mouth) it seems a full report was given to the other owner which doesn't say much for the confidentiality of those committee members! It was alleged that when this gentleman contacted the health committee for support, not only was that confidential information passed on to others; but he was made out to be a nuisance. If people wish to make themselves available for advice then they should not complain when they are contacted by people who have concerns about their dogs and need genuine advice from trustworthy people. This boy sadly passed away in 2018.
During 2015 they were under fire by one of the working groups for their high and mighty approach and their lack of consideration to their members.
As explained on our about us page, we have set our own standards based on our own experiences over the years. We will always continue to prioritise health within our breeding and provide a high standard outside the remit of the Leonberger Club of Great Britain. We take no moral cue from any one of them!
Feb 2017 update - On one of the social media groups, there was a gentleman asking for advice on recommendations for breeders. Two of our puppy owners recommended us and another kennel was mentioned from a happy client as well. These people were shot down in flames and told by one LCGB committee member and her close friend, not to mention kennel names and only to go to shows and events, meet people to ask and enquire about Leonberger breeders there. They claimed that people would obviously be biased to whoever they got their Leo from. No, not at all, their recommendation was based on their satisfactory experience. In our opinion, it was an obvious warning to the enquirer, not to go to the breeders that had been recommended, including us. It is with irony that we had previously purchased two dogs from the committee member, one of whom died at five years old. One breeder that we would not recommend, based on our own experience. When they recommend the Club, they are recommending each other.
Another message in the same thread was from a writer after attending a fun day organised under the umbrella of the LCGB. She mentioned that she had attended a fun day in Wiltshire and while no one recommended a breeder, some discreetly advised who to steer clear of.
So this is evidence that their disgraceful behaviour of underhand tactics, bad mouthing some breeders and being in breach of their own code of ethics is still going on. They are bullies! and using the Club to hide behind yet again.
We strongly advise anyone who has experienced this unethical practice at club events, on social media or in any conversation to put a complaint in writing to both LCGB, the Kennel Club and to also inform the breeder they troll.
We were told in October 2018 that a long term member of the club also made a written derogatory comment about us. Someone who doesn't know us and who has never been to our home seems to be able to form an opinion that puppies that we import, aren't coming to a good home. Some people need to be very careful when castigating others, they could end up with a libel case for defamation of character to defend!
On three occasions that we know of over the years, we have had disingenuous visitors who have been sent here purporting to be interested in a puppy from us. We don't know who has sent these people, but when they actually name a person and wait for our response, it does seem suspicious. Even more so to learn that not long after, we find from the Leonberger Stud Book, where they have actually purchased a puppy from. Follow the link above to find all breeders, their litters and their buyers.
We are pretty transparent in giving our information through this website, it's difficult to understand why people find the need to be devious?
2019, other breeders report being in receipt of derogatory comments by committee members and also on the Discover Dogs stand at Crufts, it would seem this is a new place to castigate some breeders. We have actually witnessed this ourselves when we were in favour, once upon a time........ it has always been the case with some of them.
We are highly honored if any of our puppy owners recommend us on any social media groups. Do not stop this if it is allowed on the group, or be afraid to mention us for fear of bullies. It is rather odd that other countries have no problem with breeders being recommended, but in the UK, just this small group mentioned here always object. This shows the type of people we have in the breed and proves to the general public that it must be of great inconvenience when people who they dislike, are getting good reports.
While we are far from perfect, we do our very best to make our puppy owners feel happy with the service that we provide as breeders. We have shown our dedication to our breed through our actions, travelling across Europe in the name of Genetic Diversity. It would have been much simpler to use a dog close by for convenience, no travelling for hours on end, days away from home and less expense!
We are pleased that this is recognised by our many genuine visitors and is the reason that we don't need to advertise our puppies. Long may this continue.
We care only about our own dogs, their health, our breeding and the future of the breed.
2020: And the beat goes on.....We try our best to keep ourselves to ourselves, we do our own thing with little involvement with others in the breed. We have interest only in our own breeding and have nothing to say about anyone unless in our defence and here in writing. We don't make sarcastic or damning comments on social media about people who are unable to defend themselves; that's for the amoeba brained cowards. Stones and glass houses! Some failed to get the February message to Be Kind!
A new word has also arisen on social media by them, REPUTABLE! Wow! I am quite aghast considering past behaviour and the recent documented saga of a litter from a Dam with diagnosed Hereditary cataracts, which the eye certificate had seemingly been altered by the breeder. This had been shared on social media but has since been deleted. It really is incredible how very dubious practices are accepted when a popular person is involved, they are actually protected. Others would without doubt be annihilated. Sire was advertised on the LCGB website.
People I have never heard of, some even in Canada are now joining in on social media, while it's not something that I have time for, people are very quick to inform me of items that appear and of which I would not be privy to. Who is the puppeteer? It must be someone very powerful or wealthy, or both 🤔 Could it all be just sycophantic as we have surmised in the past 😉
November 2020- As I previously pointed out not so long ago, most websites advertised on the LCGB are no longer available. Since I mentioned this, people looking on social media for breeders of Leonbergers, are now being asked to contact the secretary direct who has a list of upcoming litters. Now, considering today's climate for breeders with new laws and HMRC involvement; it is my opinion that this is an unscrupulous way to be directing people to purchase puppies. Friends or no friends; Breeders should be transparent and above the radar, it should be up to professional bodies to ensure that this is the case from their members. In this instance, they could be seen to be aiding and abetting poor breeding ethics and allowing their friends to flout current breeding laws? If breeders are unable to afford a website, they shouldn't be breeding! Just an opinion 🤔
The increased price of Leonbergers has apparently become quite a topic of interest recently on social media. Many complainants who have lived and are living a good life on money "extorted" from the general public in one way or another.
Leos have always been underpriced here in the UK and we have been guilty of this ourselves in the past and being unable to break even.
2020 has seen an increase of all breeds, mostly the cross breeds which can fetch ridiculous amounts of money.
Leonbergers were always around £500 less than a Newfoundland puppy. These are now £3000 and upwards which means that Leo pups should be averaging around £2500. Bernese are being advertised for up to £5000, they obviously value their breed.
When breeders are putting so much money and effort in to their blood lines in using foreign dogs and importing dogs, in the name of genetic diversity, then this price can be justified. To sell at a low price, undervalues the breed and increases the risk that pups will be bought, and sold on at a higher price to who knows where? We certainly don't want that scenario for our pups but if people wish to take that risk, that's their business. As for expensive dogs being stollen, I would like to see someone move one of our loyal and faithful dogs when they don't wish to be moved. Aslan is so devoted to his Dad that even I couldn't steal him.
We have no policing system here in the non communist UK, that specifies any price for Leonbergers. Is it lawful to set a price? Should the club check the legal status on this before they write such on their website? It's not been seen in any other breed as far as I know? It is an individual, rightful decision for the breeder. It would be extremely narcissistic for anyone to dictate otherwise. If breeders who don't import, travel, or don't use diverse lines and whose breeding is from mostly common lines with high COI, then they should charge a lower price. In this instance, they must be honest with their prospective puppy owners. The public also have a choice and should not be insulted for wanting a dog who is maybe better bred than another! The pedigree & COI is the evidence of this, not someone's word. There are some on recommended lists who have used a Sire with a grade 3 gonioscopy score. The pontificators again with their double standards. This dog should not be in breeding. If any breeder outside of this "elite" group were to blatantly use such poor breeding ethics, they would suffer huge condemnation. Cheaper puppies may require large vet bills later on for these puppies, breeding decisions such as these will inevitably cause health issues later on. Scientific fact, not assumption or opinion, recorded health results are publicly available.
We have had so many people over the years asking why the Leonberger breed are so cheap to buy compared to other breeds and crosses. Maybe customers think there is something seriously wrong with the breed?
If people cannot afford to pay the correct going rate for a Leonberger, they certainly cannot afford to keep one for the years of it's life. The argument seems to be (keep them priced low and affordable) They are affordable to the type of clientele that we require and we won't be changing our price. Wayne & Waynetta types need not apply here!
There have been a couple of breeders connected to the club, falsely advertising cheaper Leonberger pups that don't exist. It is shameful that these practices seem to be endorsed as the club was mentioned in one advert. One would now expect to see these people applying for breeding licences as they could have a huge demand for their cheap puppies, hope they are able to satisfy this demand.
In 2010, we actually paid £4000 for a breeding female, purchased from a committee member of the LCGB. Bavaruki High Jinxs At Pagency was worth every penny I must add. For another dog we had to pay a breeder an extra £20 for an ear tattoo that we didn't want. We were taking this boy to the vet for a microchip and serology blood test as we required a passport to take him to Spain. I doubt she paid this much for the tattoo and would guess that she made profit on that alone, which is ok, but don't tell others they can't make a profit.
At this time, these breeders and most others didn't microchip puppies or do any vaccinations. We have done both since our first litter in 2010. Other breeders have since followed our example.
Not really expecting anything different from the Leo world than our experience over the last 11 years. 2010 to be precise, although animosity began when we had Siska in 2008.
Our experience with these two people was written about on another website in 2015, only taken down end of 2020. It would seem this still needs to be live so that new gang members can be reminded of the history. I will just write a reminder for the newer bullies before I publish the whole website. Our experience with two breeders and their pals.
It is very disappointing to learn that a previous friend and current committee member, offered a free puppy by us in 2012, goes on to make judgemental comments that she knows are completely dishonest from her actual experience of us. At no point does she mention this generous offer when she is giving back up to the people who were able to further her social status. Just the negative aspects to appease them. I know from my experience of daily two hour phone conversations with her for four years, that current topics are exhausted, there is no necessity to write on social media, other than as a signal of which side you deferred to. Future disingenuous comments will prompt a further response here. (2024 - Not one derogatory comment aimed at us, from this turncoat since I wrote this).
There are many of these people who have a household income of six figures, who constantly berate anyone who dare charge a decent price for a Leonberger puppy. It's a good job there isn't a market price limit on landlord rents, Dr's salaries, businesss/council contracts, inheritances & monthly allowances. Just an opinion!
Another former friend and gossip in Northern Ireland (there were only ever 5) is getting brave by using my initials in comments. I might have to begin a new page in response 🤔 (2024- giving some people a little warning like this has worked wonders)
Ouch! the truth don't half hurt. It's ok for the mendacious to make snide comments "Look who the mentor is" and to gee up their army, but don't like it when they get my response here. Nothing hidden, all in view to anyone wishing to read. No army behind me, no puppy owners making derogatory remarks about people or the history they know nothing about. Transparent and honest!
People who are cruel to animals are invariably cruel to people too!
Most breeders have had very long waiting lists for quite some time. This is due to the lack of breeders and all the health testing that has been brought in over the last 10-12 years, most instigated by the club.
We started voluntary LPN health testing in 2008, before we were breeding and before these tests became recommended in 2010. All brought about by the LCGB in their quest for improving health in the breed. Official statistics show that they have failed miserably.
I did wonder back in 2008, why we were sending blood samples to Minnesota USA, when they could be done in Europe. The money river over the years must have been like a lottery win to the University, and none of those illnesses actually killed dogs.
From a litter of 11 pups in 2010 to two D/N parents, 3 pups D/D affected, lived between the ages of 8 years to almost 11 years. Personally, I'm satisfied with that, they all had good lives and only 1 pup in the litter was lost to cancer. Most died of natural causes or old age. The oldest lived to 11 years & 6 months in September 2021.
The reason that Leo puppies are rare is due to new health tests and dogs being removed from breeding, in particular since LPN testing was introduced and the Glaucoma test. There is so much evidence of this in the statistics. Within the next ten years, we will have no Leonbergers to breed with, we are at a critical stage. The LCGB and other clubs around the world will be responsible for the demise of a beautiful breed. What an incredible achievement for them?
Again, why the focus on USA? At club shows where testing was available, the USA was always promoted like some sort of God.. Excuse my cynical mind but could this have had anything to do with one committee member being an American? We know there is a great deal of contact with a geneticist there and the LCGB. I don't suggest any clandestine approach by anyone, but this wasn't in the best interests of the membership and made no difference to health results as both Universities work together. It doesn't make sense, it would have been so much easier and cheaper for everyone to have dealt with Berne in Europe. Unless someone has gained in some way by this strange manoeuvre? I guess we'll never know but we have been conned for sure.
On social media posts, some committee members and club members are pointing out to anyone enquiring about puppies, that they must go to the LCGB for a reputable breeder. There is a suggestion that if a breeder does not belong to the club they are not reputable. One of the committee members, wrote this under a recommendation about us some time ago. One example of the comments here. Alan and I take this very personally as it is outright discrimination. Coming from an approved organisation is very unprofessional to express their perjorative attitude. As breeders, we have shown our commitment to the breed in our actions, we have always carried out health tests and been honest and upfront about what we do. Unfortunatley, I can't say the same for some of them.
The club should not discriminate any breeder who is not a member. If a better standard of personell were running the club, I have no doubt that we would all be members and work together.
The DISCRIMINATORY Leonberger Club of Great Britain!
Why have many breeders closed their websites? Why, out of 5 websites advertised on the LCGB website, there is only 1 updated? Other links still don't work, two years after my first mention of this. It is pleasing to see that they now provide a list of breeders, although it is a shame more breeders don't support the club.
Earlier this year, there were a few breeders name calling others as "greeders" for charging more for their puppies. These breeders were mostly club members and supported in comments by other members. It is good to see that over the last three months, they have also increased their prices by £300. Very similarly priced to our puppies now.
Plans are underway within the LCGB, to introduce another breed in to the Leonberger to improve genetic diversity for the future. One would think that with the high number of dogs being imported from abroad over the last 10 years, this would not be necessary. The problem results from groups of people who have diverse lines, unwilling to share them outside of their immediate group. If breeders already supporting the gene pool were able to work together with these lines, the necessity to add another breed of dog in to the Leonberger would not exist. If this goes ahead, it will only be a very small number of breeders who will actually "benefit". If they do not share their dogs willingly now, they are very unlikely to include most other breeders in to this programme. This suggests that it is nothing to do with improving the gene pool in the UK, but to only help just a handful of breeders. We already know the damage they have caused to the breed through bringing in new health tests over the last 15 years. It is doubtful this project will get under way as the people involved are short sighted and unable to accept any outside influence. Whether they can even agree on the actual breed remains to be seen?
An issue for us is people within this group who have previously sabotaged our efforts to bring in new dogs on three occasions over the years. These actions make a mockery of their supposed value for genetic diversity. Most breeders have to keep their proposed imports tightly under wraps for fear of scurrilous actions from other breeders. On one occasion, we were within two weeks of collecting a puppy and using a foreign Sire, when suddenly we had the rug pulled from underneath us, with the meekest of an excuse. We were also refused a male puppy some years ago, from one of the people orchestrating this new programme, followed a year later by contacting a French breeder to prevent us having a puppy. When I rang the breeder, she said that when she saw International call on the telephone, she thought it was this breeder of the LCGB. Another year and the same person obstructed us using a French Stud within a day of us travelling to France, so I can personally question their motives. Other than being closely involved with our "arch nemesis" there is no reason for these malicious actions. If we could just change the belligerent attitudes from the minority, the breed that we all love would indeed flourish.
April 2023 - Recently there has been an open letter in the public domain from a well respected Judge and Breed Specialist regarding the use of another breed within the Leonberger gene pool. Here are his comments, not specifically about this project but about the necessity to crossbreed at all. Cited also is the damage caused to the breed from using popular Sires. Show ring Champions which many breeders favour.
We know that this group are outraged at any breeders who dare to charge more for their pups than they charge. Regardless of what is spent on imports etc. Their prices are increasing though which is good to see.
Expletives have been used on the website of one committee member to describe such breeders. We charge just a couple of hundred pounds more, but are still targeted with people private messaging to new people, who are advised to avoid us. They have "flying monkeys" on social media to pull in any new prospective owners, to make sure they stay within the club's group of breeders. Little do these monkeys know that not so long ago, there was a petition brought about by breeders, to have the two main members removed from the club due to their own breach of club rules.
I wonder how they feel about the latest news from British Gas, whose pre tax profits are announced at £969million for the half year of 2023?An increase of 900% on last year. Surely one would expect all these people, so passionately concerned about the public getting ripped off, will be out in force walking with placards to Downing Street condemning such obscene profit? Not to mention the petrol/diesel situation which is an absolute outrage. But not one of these narcissists has made a post about the appalling situation we are all in since October 2022. What words do they use to describe these huge en-mass extortionists? 🤔 Once again, the hypocrisy is nauseating.
A copy of the LCGB code of ethics is below. Just a reminder to what the general membership and Committee members have agreed to. Many are in continuous breach of these code of ethics on FB and it is condoned by the club. If the committee aren't able to follow the rules, remove them from their code of ethics.