Our history with the breeders of our first Leonbergers
In 2015, I was forced to write and publish a website explaining the history between ourselves and two previous breeders that we had been involved with for a few years from 2006-2010. This followed on from a public vendetta from them and a subsequent court case just two years later. Any grievance is solely with these two people that we chose to walk away from.
Two other; what I would call friends, sadly jumped camp after years of wanting to be on both sides of the fence. All others are just friends of the above, most of whom have never met or spoken to either Alan or myself. As the saying goes, only dead fish swim with the flow!
I took that website down at the end of 2020 as things on the "Eastern Front" had somewhat settled. Unfortunately, some seem to have forgotten the content during the last year, although those ardent supporters who know the details, and others who also witnessed some events will never be interested. I tried to contact one person about the cruelty of her own dog by her friend, but she put the phone down on me and wouldn't speak. Alan tried to call her husband after we were told she had contacted a breeder in Canada who knew one of our puppy owners. Her message/warning was, "does your friend know that Pagency have mated a LPN1 D/N bitch (Vectiseleon Mandisa - Elsa) and the puppy might be affected? Alan could hear her screaming in the background to put the phone down, her boyfriend at the time, was not aware that she had done this malicious act. This one acts as a chief spokesperson on every thread and is very venomous although has no personal reason of her own to be so. I am very tempted to print those emails so that the new people jumping on the bandwagon can actually see what I wrote and how I tried to communicate with her. Her only experience of us was in 2008 when we had a litter for another breeder at our home, Jem was Mum to our Balou. This person also had a litter at that time and had problems with the Dam feeding pups. With the agreement of Jem's owner, we made the offer to have her pups and let Jem feed them but this offer was declined. I guess she has never made this public but I think it was a generous move to help save her pups. I must mention the reason she declined was that she hated Jem's owner at that time. All credit to one of them for offering an olive branch.
I don't understand the hatred of this one, she went further and attempted, but failed to sabotage our very first litter in 2009.This I was informed by the Sire owner at dinner in Paris, January 2010, witnessed by one of the above breeders who was with me at that time. It was a dirty trick to do on anyone in my opinion, and I wasn't prepared to keep it quiet. I did write to let my feelings known. For established breeders to do this on us while planning our very first litter was callous in the least.
Then again in 2011, along with the two above breeders, followed our breeding plans with a Sire that we had travelled to Hungary for. Three pups were imported from Poland sired by Rua Soleil Imagine Breeze. We had our Juju only a few months old and said at that time that we wouldn't breed from her due to these nasty and scurrilous people. True to our word, Juju, now over 10 years old, never had a litter of pups. I'm sure that JH of the LCGB can verify this if asked as she was a good friend at the time and disapproved of all of this vengeance. So we didn't really get a good start with this group as a whole, but it certainly wasn't our doing.
There were many experiences that I witnessed during my time with the above breeders that were not written about on my personal website. In our early days, when we purchased our first four dogs from them, neither were popular breeders, one from one of the worst council estates in the City until she had inheritance to purchase a nice property in a decent area. Only then did she make herself better known in the breed. The other was unfairly called a puppy farmer and whom both of us had to defend. When you spend time with people in their home, you learn a lot about them to be able to give an informed impression. I got to see their way of life, babysat pups, stayed while the breeder slept to give her a rest, looked after her dogs while she had a night out with friends, we even groomed her dogs. Invited them to our home, cooked meals, even invited them and their friend to stay at our home, so we all got to know each other quite well during our time as friends. I stayed with one in France on two occasions. Then we had two litters for her at our home as a favour, after she had a fallout with her friend and accusing her of "mental cruelty" to one of her dogs, she then took Jem back to France with her. A breeder who had tried to make a living from breeding Leonbergers but had failed and returned to England. She was then at the mercy of the friend she had accused of cruelty and many other things.
Other family members who spent more time than I did at one breeders home/business could give a better account than I, but so far "I" have not involved others. As this old vendetta continues, it might be necessary to divulge more of our collective experiences in the near future.
As memories are fading as to whom is the victim of abuse, I may publish my correspondence of 2015 with the secretary of LCGB to this website as a reminder. It highlights all the vendetta incidents up to that point, the contents of which were never denied. As the above were committee members at that time, it was discussed at meetings so there was an opportunity to defend the contents of my letter. While I'm sure there are some new people within the club who were never involved in this vendetta, some still remain and it doesn't alter the facts of what happened and what the club condone. Hence why I repeat that they cover each other's demeanour's.
My opinion is that the more dogs you get rid of, the worst general standards you provide for your dogs, the better you are thought of.
The past 12 years have seen many malicious and untruthful posts written on social media about us, with their new acquaintances encouraged to add to the bullying behaviour. In particular, after the Westminster show in USA 2019, with people from there, involved in posts. Yes, I do blame these two people for all the nastiness over the years. All my updates are written in our defence to their public outbursts of hate, and there are many.
Our puppy owners have been discriminated against when posting pics of their new puppy in the fb groups. Once some people make the connection, people dare not comment for fear of retribution. If they dare to complement us in any way, they are soon met with abusive comments. These people are so fickle that a puppy is only beautiful if it is bred by a breeder in their click, which is what these groups are. I now advise people to steer clear of fb groups to avoid more conflict. A great shame when all they want to do is share their excitement of having a new puppy.
One of our owners posted on the LCGB fb page about how happy she was with our puppy and us, but a member commented what a shame we charge such high prices for our pups. This person paid £1000 for their puppy, while other breeders were charging £1200-£1400 at that time, so this owner was very confused about the unnecessary comment. Approved discrimination! ?
One of our owners breeding in Canada has received their own abuse from a committee member there. Someone that I met at Crufts a few years ago who I hadn't realised was connected to the GB club people, until our conversation was rudely interrupted by one of them. I will elaborate more on this and an offensive email that I received during 2020, when I have all the facts and a satisfactory report on the conclusion from the club. Based on our own experience, I can't help but make a connection.
"Nothing brings people together more than a common enemy" especially where reward is concerned, and I do suspect that people are in some way rewarded for their involvement, or hoping for reward in some way in the future, regardless of their lack of knowledge of facts. Most comments are, from a third party, a friend of a friend who heard this, that and the other; none can actually give a truthful and personal story as very few exist. Any actual confrontation that I have had with people have been instances where I felt disloyalty, the loss of trust, disingenous actions and disappointment in people. I don't give people second chances once my trust in them has been compromised, I don't waste further energy.
Some of these faceless people just have an inbuilt predilection for hatred.
Many just aren't the loving animal owners they claim to be. Instead of policing social media and dog sale sites day in day out, they should get their dogs out more, do something with them instead of leaving them to fend for themselves outside all day, often in filthy back yards (if photos are anything to go by) or in a kennel all day and night as many are. Many people have acres of land but dogs are kept in a small area, I have never understood this?
Not often are these people posting about where they have been with their dogs and what they have done. Some never leave the property other than go to a show. Some just stuck in the home while their owner is online all day, chatting on the phone or out at work. It would seem that SM is more important than the welfare of their dogs.
I know everyone has a different idea of a standard, so maybe it's just me who thinks this way of keeping Leonbergers is unacceptable. Supporting this is support of poor standards overall which must be the normal way of keeping dogs for some Leo owners & breeders. The same scenario to Jenson, our puppy needlessly killed by cruel owners, but supported by these people. Who wants to count them as friends? Wayne & Waynetta type springs to mind, even the same potty mouths.
Charge a higher price for a Leonberger puppy (although less than a mongrel) and be condemned, but have an innocent animal killed with the worst possible cruelty and it's exemplary. These people must have been clapping Defra this week who went to kill Geronimo the innocent Alpaca in Gloucester. They can't have it both ways. This gives me reason enough to question the mental health of these individuals.
Animal cruelty, neglect and "getting rid of dogs" is not an accusation I have ever had to face in my lifetime, name calling and everything else is like water off a duck's back. Yes, we are very different people indeed thank the Lord.
We had gone to ring craft training in our local area from 2006, until the committee changed in 2018. A very underhand takeover. The two breeders above and their KC judge friend started to attend after many years of absence, when their friends took over the running of the club. They would enter classes run by their friend but we never did. We all know the result when Leonbergers were judged at Crufts a few months later by this judge.
The pleasant and friendly atmosphere immediately changed with their membership.
Other friends of theirs soon joined and on one occasion of summer 2018, a man came over to me to cause an argument about an incident from the previous week when we had not been there. Although Alan was with me at the time, it was only me who was targeted for the abuse. He was told by the KC Judge to go away from me and sit down. Their combined intimidating presence caused us and our handler to cease attending that training group.
My old website will be re- published here.
Some of the vitriolic diatribe sent to us in the future will also be copy & pasted. Let the world see what these outrageous bullies have to say. I don't hide my responses in defence to what is said. I don't hide behind groups so they can't see what I am saying about them, I'm not a coward. I stand by every word as I have done since 2010. I have said before, the truth of experiences and opinion are not libellous. Most is now common knowledge, witnessed by others and talked about in the breed but hushed up, as are other indiscretions I have mentioned.
Anyone is welcome to call me to discuss anything if they have a problem, link below, but don't complain when I publish their comments, past or previous. If it can't be said one to one, then don't say it.
In a recent malicious comment suggesting an improvement in my health, from Angela Cairns of Tadworth, Surrey. Someone I do not know. I have asked her on 24.02.2022 to explain why she would make such a comment about someone she has no personal experience of, and written in the present tense. Her reply was that she had watched the video from my court case 10 years ago. She then blocked me from contacting her again. Nothing to do with just having a puppy from one of the above breeders then?
I rarely use social media, I have neither time or inclination. I would rather focus on my own business, family, get out with my dogs, doing what they love, taking them for long drives and on holiday; enjoying their company.
No health improvement to report but you have to be bonkers to own so many huge dogs so hands up in the air!!!
Future derogatory posts on social media will be posted here.
28th April 2022
I did warn people last year that I would copy & paste any SM comments that I feel are derogatory towards me, especially when they are from people connected to the above. Some have forgotten the alleged threat to Destroy me, at the end of 2010, which is what this is all about. Some people are not happy that I have posted and named someone involved in the vendetta of old. If people don't like it then don't get involved in malicious posts about me. They will not be removed unless a public apology is made on this website.
This afternoon, our website was very busy on this particular page. I would guess that there is a post yet again on SM from either Stoke-on-Trent or Congleton. I guess I will soon hear of the same old trolls with their usual insulting comments, third party stories, how sad I am to dare to defend myself from them etc. etc.
Still no one brave enough to call me, the invite is always here.
Why would someone who doesn't know me, randomly search for a video from 10 years ago and then make a comment in the present tense, and directed to a person known to have killed one of our puppies, Jenson? But it's not malicious: Well I beg to differ.
I was blocked from further contact. I wasn't kidding when I told her I would print her nasty words, I don't make veiled threats to people.
Unfortunately, Angela Cairns chose to ignore what transpired within 13 months of that court case, or she didn't read my previous website stating the facts that followed? So to provide the facts clearly and briefly: I was sent by the DWP for a medical which proved that my claim for disability benefit was indeed correct and the award was returned. I can't fake bone disease as it is shown clearly on an X-Ray, being in a wheelchair for two years followed by a hip replacement. A 30 minute video from an eight hour day, was very cleverly edited. (second hip replacement 2023)
The charge brought against me was a "failure to notify a change of circumstances" due to my having 1 day out at Crufts 2011, but there was never a change to notify, which medical records proved.
It's a shame the medical wasn't done as routine previous to this as that would have saved the taxpayer around £20k. It was found that we qualified for legal aid and as we had no income due to caring for my elderly Mother, saving said taxpayer up to £1000 per week; the DWP declared that we had under-claimed for quite some time. The 6k that was initially claimed to be owed by me from the court case, was actually paid by the DWP from the increase that they awarded me. I never paid anything back, nor should I have done as I had done nothing wrong, as I had maintained from the very first interview. We also gained around £200 per week for extra social care for my Mother, so that case was actually very successful for us. Dare I mention the £5.5k disabled bathroom that was installed for my Mum. They couldn't throw enough at us.
I wrote very soon after, that the court case was brought about due to a false court statement by a friend of the above who worked in the fraud department as a civil servant at Nottingham council. e.g. she claimed to know me, when she only knew of me. I will print the contents of this statement and point out the intentional inaccuracies and blatant dishonesty of which she was prepared to swear on oath. She also wrote that she knew I had Lupus, something she could only have gained from one of the above people, her friend. In Jan 2011, while I was in Poland, she wrote on a thread, started by the above breeder that she felt she was not doing her job if she didn't report me to the DWP. It transpired from an interview with a DWP officer, that I had been reported to them before November 2011 and following that report, they attended the LKA show in December. This was around the time that I was told of the alleged threat by the two above breeders of their intention to "Destroy me" Is the connection to the two incidents not obvious? This person, also a KC Judge, (and we know how corrupt some of those are) has made a few derogatory comments over the years regarding the above, one printed below. This from a government worker, how professional!
While she did me a favour with her dishonest statement, I believe she should pay the 20K cost to the DWP to bring about this ridiculous case. So the trolls have no reason to use it as a weapon against me, unless they are just jealous of what we actually gained from it. I did confide in someone with this info at the time, now a committee member of the LCGB. She has since jumped camp and as a first class lickspittle, will have been eager to relay this snippet of goss, so those in the click will already have knowledge of this. For those who didn't know, you do now.
30th June 2022
From a discussion about the above post on 29th April, threats were made on social media. From my experience, it's a veiled threat as this person not only can't drive the five miles to pay me a visit (she has a phobia about driving, often talked about on SM) but would be unable to do so without her regular army in front of her. One being our ex dog trainer, Wendy Shuffle-bottom of Moor dog training, who we complained about several years ago after spending £1000 with her getting our late Elsa through the KCGC awards. We took 3 dogs in total for a few years at a cost of £15 per week. She is always quick to jump in with nastiness on any thread made by the above breeder, simply because we were dissatisfied with her training methods and the way she treated her very good friend at the time who confided in us. She is welcome to visit us to give a refund that she owes us for the many hours we sat in training listening to her talk about her boyfriend instead of training the dogs. At least 30 minutes of every lesson wasted. As I've said before, nothing brings people together more than a common enemy.
If one makes a suggestion that one intends to note all my comments for the purpose of suing at a later date (although they haven't over the 13 years that I have defended myself against them) I would suggest that it's not a good idea to make threats on SM, veiled or otherwise.
When will these vile people stop their vitriol? Since writing this page in 2021, not one person has had the courage to get in touch with their grievances, despite my invitation.